From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue May 7 16:22 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id QAA22017 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 16:22:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id KAA14083 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 7 May 1996 10:16:53 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id KAA14079 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 10:16:39 -0400 Received: (from bernd@localhost) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id PAA20766; Tue, 7 May 1996 15:25:44 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 15:25:44 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Message-Id: <199605071325.PAA20766@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org, bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de Subject: Quake Developers Pages X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 814 X-Lines: 21 Status: RO The Quake Developers support pages have found a new home, at http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/ I am currently reworking the pages and fixing the bugs and danglings links on the way. For the time being, please do not use any bookmarks except the main page, and my apologies for any inconvenience. The Quake related stuff is mostly done already, the pages missing should be up next weekend. In addition, the redirection mechanism I relied on at the former location did not work correctly, again my apologies to anybody who got "lost in Hyperspace". Please report any serious problems you are encountering at the new location to me. b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue May 7 17:34 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA23021 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 17:34:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id LAA14270 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 7 May 1996 11:32:51 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id LAA14266 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 11:32:46 -0400 Received: (from bernd@localhost) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id RAA22994; Tue, 7 May 1996 17:32:43 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 17:32:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Message-Id: <199605071532.RAA22994@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org, bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de Subject: Porting QuakeEd? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1462 X-Lines: 40 Status: RO Quoting John Carmack: "QuakeEd is written for NEXTSTEP 3.3, while GnuStep is an implementation of the OPENSTEP spec. I haven't had time to port it to openstep yet, but it looks like it will take a little effort. NeXT has tools in NS 4.0 to help, but it still isn't automatic." The GNU GCC (and possibly DJGPP) supports ObjectiveC, and GNUstep is free software, see http://www.gnustep.org/ (US) http://www.NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.de/GNUstep/ (european mirror) Quote from FAQ: "Base Library 85% done, GUI library 25% done". Add to this said differences between NS 3.3 and OS/NS 4.0, and the prospect of re-building QuakeEd using GNU GCC and GNUstep does not look to promising - way too early, I guess. However, ObjectiveC and NextStep references might be handy once QuakeEd should be ported to C++ and another GUI - see http://www.next.com/Pubs/Documents/OPENSTEP/ObjectiveC/objctoc.htm for ObjectiveC online reference, and http://www.next.com/Pubs/Documents/OPENSTEP/OpenStep.html for OpenStep online reference (and NextStep docs ordering info). There is a NeXTSTEP-alike window manager, "BowMan", based on "fvwm" at http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~byang/bowman/, and a successor, "AfterStep", at http://woodward-52.rh.uchicago.edu/~frank/afterstep/, which might or might not be useful with regard to porting QuakeEd. Hope this is exhaustive :-) info for anybody planning on porting QuakeEd. b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue May 7 18:16 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA23297 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 18:08:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id MAA14453 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 7 May 1996 12:05:58 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id MAA14447 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 12:05:52 -0400 Received: (from bernd@localhost) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id SAA23270; Tue, 7 May 1996 18:05:21 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 18:05:21 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Message-Id: <199605071605.SAA23270@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org, bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de Subject: The GUI of Choice? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2161 X-Lines: 55 Status: RO There is one thing about (prospective) writing of Quake Editing tools that is perfectly annoying IMO - namely which library or toolkit to rely on for doing the GUI. Point in case: QuakeEd, see related "Porting QuakeEd?" posting. However, things are not different for those of us starting from scratch. There is a good overview of freely available builders, toolkits and libraries at http://www-ocean.tamu.edu/~baum/graphics-GUI.html I have read and re-read the list, keeping in mind certain requirements (your mileage may vary): + Linux/X support + freely distributable sources & widgets + no OSF Motif required (optional is okay) + C++ or C, no scripts + preferably includes interface builder/editor + NT support higly desirable for cross-development + allow for Mesa/OpenGL and GLUT use and still have not taken a decision. I imagine that others are facing the same problem, and would like to see suggestions and comments. There are a few published "Quake Editor" projects I have seen so far (thanks to afterShock): Shaker - http://www.canweb.net/~fisty/shaker/, (formerly "QED", formerly using "AfterStep", now using XForms (see http://bragg.phys.uwm.edu/xforms/) QMapHack - http://www.eve.net/~rshields/, (Windows) QEU - http://www.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~quinet/games/QEU/, no GUI mentioned, but I remember a home-brew SWAPI... omitting the MDL tools written for DO(W)S, of course, whose authors might want to share some insights, too. Anybody? b. P.S.: somebody asked whether GUI issues are on topic - my apologies for not getting back to this earlier, but guess here's the answer ;-). P.P.S.: I briefly considered a Java GUI (running as a separate process/thread), but abandoned the idea as the AWT is reportedly not a good choice. Anybody knowing a good toolkit that allows for a Native C (C++?) wrapper? From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue May 7 19:41 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA24147 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 19:41:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id NAA14939 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 7 May 1996 13:40:15 -0400 Received: from minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (minerva.phyast.pitt.edu [136.142.111.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id NAA14935 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 13:40:12 -0400 Received: (brian@localhost) by minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (8.6.10/8.6.5) id NAA27282 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Tue, 7 May 1996 13:40:04 -0400 From: "Brian K. Martin" Message-Id: <199605071740.NAA27282@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Subject: Re: The GUI of Choice? To: quake-dev@gamers.org Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 13:40:04 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199605071605.SAA23270@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> from "Bernd Kreimeier" at May 7, 96 06:05:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 22 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 870 > > omitting the MDL tools written for DO(W)S, of course, whose > authors might want to share some insights, too. Anybody? > > b. I've spent some time now writing a gui for meddle (mdl tool). It isn't the funnest thing. It is a c++ (djgpp) gui for use with grx20 lib. If i ever finish, i'll include all source with the next meddle release. I started off using sword, which is nice, but not quite the right type of gui. I am planning on coding in windows as soon as I get an new hard disk. IMO, the gui makes or breaks an editor. In terms of newbies using an editor, only the best gui's will survive. Now die hards will write levels with an ascii editor, or will spend several hours learning the editor (like the original deus). So i am as eager as anyone to hear about a gui if you have any suggestions. brian From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed May 8 05:38 MET 1996 Received: from olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (root@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.1]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id FAA29623 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 05:38:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA03384 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 05:40:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id XAA17336 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 7 May 1996 23:37:11 -0400 Received: from www.interlog.com (www.interlog.com [198.53.145.8]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id XAA17332 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 23:37:08 -0400 Received: from gold.interlog.com (mwhouser@gold.interlog.com [198.53.145.2]) by www.interlog.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA18628 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 23:37:07 -0400 Received: (from mwhouser@localhost) by gold.interlog.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) id XAA26058 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Tue, 7 May 1996 23:37:06 -0400 From: Matt Houser Message-Id: <199605080337.XAA26058@gold.interlog.com> Subject: Re: The GUI of Choice? To: quake-dev@gamers.org Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 23:37:06 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199605071605.SAA23270@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> from "Bernd Kreimeier" at May 7, 96 06:05:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1163 X-Lines: 28 Status: RO Just to straighten some stuff up... I've been working on Shaker for some time... it was said that I use AfterStep for it's development... not ture... AfterStep is a window manager for X... plain and simple... Ok... real business, I chose to use xforms for development beause it has most of the features looked for (previous message mentioned these) + Linux/X support + freely distributable sources & widgets + no OSF Motif required (optional is okay) + C++ or C, no scripts + preferably includes interface builder/editor + NT support higly desirable for cross-development + allow for Mesa/OpenGL and GLUT use With the exception of the NT portability, xforms has all this, which makes it good... because I don't have NT to test and NT version on... ...Matt BTW: shaker's url is http://www.canweb.net/~fisty/shaker/ if you want to check it out -- ================================================================== Matt Houser IRC: Fisty email: mwhouser@interlog.com, mwhouser@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca URL: http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~mwhouser -- "After all this time, fruit salid still starts with an 'F'!" From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed May 8 12:57 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA04804 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 12:46:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id GAA18986 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 06:45:08 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id GAA18982 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 06:45:04 -0400 Received: (from bernd@localhost) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id MAA04780 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Wed, 8 May 1996 12:44:52 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:44:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Message-Id: <199605081044.MAA04780@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: The GUI of Choice? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 657 X-Lines: 20 Status: RO >From: Matt Houser >I chose to use xforms for development beause it has >most of the features looked for (previous message mentioned these) > > + ... > + freely distributable sources & widgets > + ... > >With the exception of the NT portability, xforms has all this Correction: according to T.C. Zhao (zhao@bragg.phys.uwm.edu), the "source of xforms is not publically available and probably will remain so for quite some time." Which is why I decided not to use XForms. b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed May 8 00:13 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA26912 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 00:13:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id SAA16036 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 7 May 1996 18:11:22 -0400 Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id SAA16032 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 18:11:18 -0400 Received: from justin-baugh (lbg-va1-13.ix.netcom.com [205.186.72.45]) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA29174; Tue, 7 May 1996 15:15:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199605072215.PAA29174@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> From: "Dark Shadow" To: "quake-dev@gamers.org" , "jyger@cais.com" Subject: RE: The GUI of Choice? Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 17:45:03 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 50 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Length: 2593 > IMO, the gui makes or breaks an editor. In terms of newbies using an > editor, only the best gui's will survive. Now die hards will write > levels with an ascii editor, or will spend several hours learning the > editor (like the original deus). So i am as eager as anyone to hear about > a gui if you have any suggestions. > > brian I personally agree with that statement (GUI making/breaking an editor). Part of the reason why current DOOM editors such as DCK, DEU for Win, and to some extent Waded are so popular is because they offer a GUI interface with organized menu structures and easy to use features. Personally I really couldn't stand the early DEUs, but I loved the first one for Windows. Also, although people scream at me when I suggest vis-bas 4 pro for an editor, the fact is that making a truly GUI-type, friendly interface is really child's play using ANY version of VB. As for the shouts that VB is slow as hell when compared to C++ etc (which is definitely true), external DLL files can be used for the functions needing speed (as you might have seen in earlier versions of Wintex which used LBWINTEX.DLL for external wad hacking functions). One of the advantages of using the 32-bit edition of VB is that it's much faster than its predecessors, and I think that it would now be possible to write a decent editor and / or utility using VB as an interface shell and using external DLL's for the actual hack and slash of the wads. Having said that, I've never really liked C/C++. Sure it's fast, but for most people who aren't necessarily computer science doctorates, C has a sharp learning curve. So we have to rely on a few geniuses in the field of C to write programs that don't crash and run correctly The best way to encourage development of good editors and utilities, in my estimation, is for a few of you C gurus to whip up some DLL's which cover basic needs for a utility, for instance, a DLL which functions like Meddle. Then you get the VB people like myself to write interfaces using those DLL's. So what's the result? The end result is a easy to use while slower program, but which is more advantageous? Speed, or ease of use? If you make a bad-ass editor that's 10,000x faster than what I wrote in vis-bas, sure, it's great, but only you and the people you force-fed it onto :) will know how to use it. The long lasting editors are the ones which combine all of the above (ease of use, speed, etc) into one package, and don't advance one end (speed) at the expense of the other (ease of use). -j From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed May 8 02:02 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id CAA27824 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 02:02:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id UAA16429 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 7 May 1996 20:01:20 -0400 Received: from mercury.acs.unt.edu (mercury.acs.unt.edu [129.120.1.1]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id UAA16425 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 20:01:17 -0400 Received: from jove.acs.unt.edu (jove.acs.unt.edu [129.120.1.41]) by mercury.acs.unt.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA18899 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 19:01:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from bdb0004@localhost) by jove.acs.unt.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA27741; Tue, 7 May 1996 19:00:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 19:00:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Barry D Bloom To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: RE: The GUI of Choice? In-Reply-To: <199605072215.PAA29174@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 50 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 2336 On Tue, 7 May 1996, Dark Shadow wrote: > Also, although people scream at me when I suggest vis-bas 4 pro for an > editor, the fact is that making a truly GUI-type, friendly interface is > really child's play using ANY version of VB. As for the shouts that VB is > slow as hell when compared to C++ etc (which is definitely true), external > DLL files can be used for the functions needing speed (as you might have > seen in earlier versions of Wintex which used LBWINTEX.DLL for external > wad hacking functions). One of the advantages of using the 32-bit edition > of VB is that it's much faster than its predecessors, and I think that it > would now be possible to write a decent editor and / or utility using VB > as an interface shell and using external DLL's for the actual hack and > slash of the wads. Are you actually proposing writiing a 3D Wireframe real time editor in Visual Basic? HAHAHAHAHAHA! I'm sorry, that was rude. Really now, have you ever tried to write a real world app (as opposed to a little applet) in Visual Basic? VB is purely a tool for interface *design*. Trying to write a complete application in it is a waste of time. Especially if it is at all graphically intensive. At my real job, we started an Internet application for windows. By the time it was functional, it was so dog slow that it was unusable. We had plenty of external DLL's doing the grungy stuff. It didn't matter if it took the screen 2 secs for your form to update. [stuff about the difficulties of C deleted] Anyway, I admire your gumption, however, if a compromise is what you are looking for, then Visual C++ really is the choice. MFC is no bed of roses for sure, but many of the visual aspects of VB are present in some capactiy in VC4. Dialog boxes and the like are quite easy to design and program. Even GDI manipulations are relatively simple once you grasp the concept of the device context in the framework of the CDC class. Personally, I think it is going to take a Direct Draw appliction to acheive the ultimate goal of 3D Preview. I have done some preliminary testing with the Game SDK, and I can tell you that 640x480 full screen Quake-like apps will scream. So, a 1/4 of screen preview window should surely be doable. Barry Bloom bdb0004@jove.acs.unt.edu ------------------------ From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed May 8 02:31 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id CAA28053 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 02:31:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id UAA16521 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 7 May 1996 20:30:11 -0400 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id UAA16517 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 20:30:08 -0400 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA29854; Tue, 7 May 1996 20:29:46 -0400 Date: 07 May 96 20:25:50 EDT From: The Dewb <72614.2725@CompuServe.COM> To: "'\"quake-dev@gamers.org\"'" Subject: RE: The GUI of Choice? Message-ID: <960508002549_72614.2725_IHD126-7@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1182 X-Lines: 25 Status: RO >Also, although people scream at me when I suggest vis-bas 4 pro for an >editor, the fact is that making a truly GUI-type, friendly interface is >really child's play using ANY version of VB. As for the shouts that VB is >slow as hell when compared to C++ etc (which is definitely true), external ... >Having said that, I've never really liked C/C++. Sure it's fast, but for >most people who aren't necessarily computer science doctorates, C has a >sharp learning curve. So we have to rely on a few geniuses in the field Expanding on this argument [not to be a walking MS advertisement, but avoiding it is becoming hard.. :) ] Visual C++ 4.0 is just as easy as visual basic with much more power and flexibility. In fact, with the new Foundation Classes (which admittedly _do_ represent a large learning curve) the GUI pretty much writes itself. VC even includes OpenGL support and lots of other nifty stuff that would help out in an editor project. >DLL which functions like Meddle. Then you get the VB people like myself >to write interfaces using those DLL's. So what's the result? The end This is actually a good idea, but stuff like this never seems to happen. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed May 8 04:37 MET 1996 Received: from olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (root@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.1]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id EAA29106 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 04:37:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA03246 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 04:38:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id WAA17168 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 7 May 1996 22:35:00 -0400 Received: from absolut-zero.winternet.com (root@absolut-zero.winternet.com [198.174.169.4]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id WAA17164 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 22:34:57 -0400 Received: from banquo.velocity.com (ppp-66-31.dialup.winternet.com [204.246.66.31]) by absolut-zero.winternet.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id VAA03948 for ; Tue, 7 May 1996 21:34:54 -0500 (CDT) Posted-Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:34:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960508023806.006bfe64@mail.winternet.com> X-Sender: jlowell@mail.winternet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:38:06 -0500 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jim Lowell Subject: Quake Development Tools (was RE: The GUI of Choice?) Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 38 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1835 At 08:25 PM 5/7/96 EDT, you wrote: >>Also, although people scream at me when I suggest vis-bas 4 pro for an >>editor, the fact is that making a truly GUI-type, friendly interface is >>really child's play using ANY version of VB. As for the shouts that VB is >>slow as hell when compared to C++ etc (which is definitely true), external >... >>Having said that, I've never really liked C/C++. Sure it's fast, but for >>most people who aren't necessarily computer science doctorates, C has a >>sharp learning curve. So we have to rely on a few geniuses in the field > >Expanding on this argument [not to be a walking MS advertisement, but avoiding >it is becoming hard.. :) ] Visual C++ 4.0 is just as easy as visual basic with >much more power and flexibility. In fact, with the new Foundation Classes >(which admittedly _do_ represent a large learning curve) the GUI pretty much >writes itself. VC even includes OpenGL support and lots of other nifty stuff >that would help out in an editor project. > >>DLL which functions like Meddle. Then you get the VB people like myself >>to write interfaces using those DLL's. So what's the result? The end > >This is actually a good idea, but stuff like this never seems to happen. Personal opinion follows: I gotta jump in here. I've been using Borland's Delphi since day one and have yet to find anything that it can't do as easier than VB and just as quick as VC++. I don't think there would be any disadvantages to using Delphi to develop a Quake editor, and I've always considered it (Pascal) superior to C just because the finished code is generally far more legible and therefore maintainable. VB is definatly out though, too much overhead to do anything usefull. If it was between VC and VB, I'd be writing C code in a heartbeat. :) Just my two cents. -= Jim Lowell =- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed May 8 15:06 MET 1996 Received: from olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (root@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.1]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA06540 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 15:06:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA07658 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 15:08:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id JAA19692 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 09:05:40 -0400 Received: from wariat.apk.net (uucp@wariat.wariat.org [192.147.147.1]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id JAA19688 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 09:05:37 -0400 Received: from pcohio.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by wariat.apk.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with UUCP id JAA07093 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Wed, 8 May 1996 09:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by pcohio (NetXpress 2.01) with UUCP id B3F8DA; Wed, 8 May 1996 09:01:01 -0500 To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: RE: The GUI of Choice? From: matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com (Matt Tagliaferri) Message-ID: <24.58778.5@pcohio.com> In-Reply-To: <199605072215.PAA29174@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 08:27:00 -0500 Organization: PC-OHIO PCBOARD - Cleveland, OH - 216-381-3320 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 823 X-Lines: 17 Status: RO I agree with all the Visual Basic comments for ease of programming, etc, and would like to throw Delphi into the ring. I wrote DoomCad IN VB, and it was a popular editor for its ease of use, but unpopular due to its speed. I then rewrote it in Delphi, and got the same look but much faster speed. If you are a VB programmer, but took a bit of Pascal in college or somewhere, learing Delphi is an easy jump to make. Someone on the Doom mailing list helped me make the jump, and I'm happy to help anyone interested do the same. (thanx Jim :)) matt tag _ _ ------------------------------------------------------------- |_|_| PC-OHIO PCBoard Online * pcohio.com * V34+ 33.6: 216-381-3320 |_|_| The Best BBS in America * Cleveland, OH * Go Tribe ------------------------------------------------------------- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed May 8 17:55 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA08711 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 17:54:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id LAA20125 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 11:49:46 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id LAA20121 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 11:49:40 -0400 Received: (from bernd@localhost) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id RAA08633; Wed, 8 May 1996 17:47:42 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:47:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Message-Id: <199605081547.RAA08633@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: The GUI of Choice? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2075 X-Lines: 58 Status: RO Here is the current list of those I am considering. Each comes with source, and reportedly compiles with Linux/X and NT:

          | XToolkit |_Lang. | Builder | Mesa/GLUT | ---------------------------------------------------
Amulet    | own      | C++   | not yet |     ?     |
Fresco    | Xt, own  | C++   | ?       |     ?     |
V         | Athena   | C++   | no      |     ?     |
wxWindows | XView    | C++   | yes     |     ?     |

Use of OSF Motif is optional, but not required with Fresco, wxWindows and (not yet) V - Amulet is completely standalone. I do not favor use of Motif anyway - the free Lesstif is far from being finished, and using Motif usually means distribution of bloated (statically linked) binaries. V and wxWindows run with looseDOWS 3.1, all of them claim to support looseDOWS 95 (sorry, couldn't resist :). No DOS support, obviously. All of these seem to be under active development, including mailing lists, and recent changes. Gut feeling says that Fresco will progress slowly, and is probably bound to be a memory hog, but I have no evidence whatsoever. Next-step [sic!] will be picking a choice, and checking out how reliable and easy to use/port the packages really are. Interaction with Mesa/GLUT is the main issue now, as far as I am concerend. b. Specifics Amulet: available for Mac, too. Fresco: standardization by X Consortium pending, Mac in prep., CORBA, the big leagues... and Tcl/Tk support :( V: keeps the look & feel of target platform, which might or might not be advantageous wxWindows: Cygnus GNU-WIN32 should compile this one some day, DJGPP with RSXDK does not work URL's: Amulet: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/amulet/www/amulet-home.html Fresco: http://www.faslab.com/fresco/HomePage.html V: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~wampler/vgui/vgui.html wxWindows: http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~jacs/wxwin.html From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed May 8 17:19 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA08282 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 17:14:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id LAA20019 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 11:11:24 -0400 Received: from mailgate.ericsson.se (mailgate.ericsson.se [130.100.2.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id LAA20015 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 11:11:13 -0400 Received: from chapelle.eed.ericsson.se (chapelle.eed.ericsson.se [164.48.132.130]) by mailgate.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3/gate-0.9) with ESMTP id RAA17814 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 17:10:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from eedraq@localhost) by chapelle.eed.ericsson.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) id RAA16589 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Wed, 8 May 1996 17:10:44 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:10:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199605081510.RAA16589@chapelle.eed.ericsson.se> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: The GUI of Choice? (a second opinion) From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4437 X-Lines: 97 Status: RO Wow! I see that the GUI is a hot issue... The traffic on this mailing list has increased very quickly. As long as this doesn't turn into holy wars, this is OK, but I hope that we won't see too much of "my (programming) language is better than yours"... ;-) On Tue, 7 May 1996, Bernd.Kreimeier@NeRo.Uni-Bonn.DE wrote: > I have read and re-read the list, keeping in mind certain > requirements (your mileage may vary): > > + Linux/X support > + freely distributable sources & widgets > + no OSF Motif required (optional is okay) > + C++ or C, no scripts > + preferably includes interface builder/editor > + NT support higly desirable for cross-development > + allow for Mesa/OpenGL and GLUT use My requirements for the GUI for DEU and QEU are a bit different: + Provide a common interface to the native GUI functions of several operating systems and graphical interfaces. The systems that should be supported are, by order of importance: . UNIX/X (not only Linux), especially Solaris because this is my main development environment, . Windows 3.1 or 95, because this is what most people will want to use, . DOS (without Windows), because most people who run Quake or Doom under DOS do not want to start Windows every time they make a small change to a level, . Macintosh, . OS/2. + freely distributable sources & widgets. + no commercial libraries required (this includes OSF/Motif), except if they are part of the standard OS (i.e. Windows). + C or Java, no C++. + preferably includes interface builder/editor. Most of the problems with existing multi-platform GUIs is that they do not support at least two of the OSes/GUIs that I want to use (usually, DOS and Macintosh are missing from the list). That's why I thought about developing my own, since I have a good knowledge of X11, Windows and DOS graphics (and some limited knowledge of OS/2 and Mac). Also, a lot of libraries use C++ and I want to use ANSI C only (although I use some object-oriented concepts in my code). The requirements on freely distributable sources and no dependencies on commerical libraries mean that I want to be sure that anyone is able to compile (an maybe modify) the toolkit without needing any commercial packages, except maybe the operating system which they already have anyway. There are already lots of free toolkits, but alas none of them are available on all platforms that I would like to support. > using XForms (see http://bragg.phys.uwm.edu/xforms/) I also thought about XForms, which I have been using for something else, but this is too limited (no support for other OSes) and, as Bernd said, the sources are not freely distributable. > QEU - http://www.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~quinet/games/QEU/, > no GUI mentioned, but I remember a home-brew SWAPI... Well, the page describing the draft version of SWAPI (Simple Windowing Application Programming Interface) should be at this URL: http://www.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~quinet/swapi/ ... but I just realized that I forgot to upload the pages to my server after I wrote them. This stuff is outdated anyway, because I wrote that in December and I haven't updated it since then. > P.P.S.: I briefly considered a Java GUI (running as a separate > process/thread), but abandoned the idea as the AWT is > reportedly not a good choice. Right. Working around the limitations of the AWT means at least as much work as writing an interface from scratch in C. The basic widgets are too limited, and there are some things that you cannot do, even by sub-classing them. Also, some of them are not very good-looking (e.g. the list widget under X). Still, I seriously considered using Java for the interface to QEU, and I will probably use it anyway for some small tools. But the AWT is not good enough for a "real" editor, so Java is not an option for a full-featured editor. Unless Sun or some other company creates a new windowing toolkit that is better than the current AWT. > Anybody knowing a good > toolkit that allows for a Native C (C++?) wrapper? Very good question, indeed! :-) I haven't found any toolkit that meets my requirements, so I'm left with the only solution of developing my own. That's why I started with SWAPI. But it would be a lot less work for me and the members of the DEU team if such a toolkit existed somewhere... -Raphael From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu May 9 01:40 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id BAA12943 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 01:40:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id TAA21618 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 19:34:27 -0400 Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id TAA21614 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 19:34:23 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id aa21436; 9 May 96 0:34 +0100 Received: from tsys.demon.co.uk ([158.152.159.87]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa18940; 9 May 96 0:07 +0100 Date: Tue, 07 May 96 23:50:50 GMT Message-ID: <13989@tsys.demon.co.uk> From: Tom Wheeley Organization: City Zen FM To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: The GUI of Choice? X-Mailer: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30 Lines: 43 X-Sig-By: Tomsystems Quote v1.2. (c)1996 Tom Wheeley, tomw@tsys.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2393 X-Lines: 47 Status: RO In article <199605072215.PAA29174@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> you write: > Also, although people scream at me when I suggest vis-bas 4 pro for an > editor, the fact is that making a truly GUI-type, friendly interface is > really child's play using ANY version of VB. As for the shouts that VB is > slow as hell when compared to C++ etc (which is definitely true), external > DLL files can be used for the functions needing speed (as you might have > seen in earlier versions of Wintex which used LBWINTEX.DLL for external > wad hacking functions). One of the advantages of using the 32-bit edition > of VB is that it's much faster than its predecessors, and I think that it > would now be possible to write a decent editor and / or utility using VB > as an interface shell and using external DLL's for the actual hack and > slash of the wads. I hope this isn't drifting _too_ far off the topic of the list (or is it on topic?), but have you tried Delphi? I've found it to be a very good mix of C/C++ power/speed with VB's ease of GUI creating and programming. I have a poor memory at best, but I believe Olivier Montanuy mutterred something about moving to it for Wintex (apologies if _completely_ wrong here... :-) > Having said that, I've never really liked C/C++. Sure it's fast, but for > most people who aren't necessarily computer science doctorates, C has a > sharp learning curve. So we have to rely on a few geniuses in the field Some people consider writing in Delphi easier than VB > of C to write programs that don't crash and run correctly is not an example!!> The best way to encourage development of good > editors and utilities, in my estimation, is for a few of you C gurus to > whip up some DLL's which cover basic needs for a utility, for instance, a > DLL which functions like Meddle. Then you get the VB people like myself > to write interfaces using those DLL's. So what's the result? The end Well it _would_ be nice if djgpp could make DLLs... (I believe there is a thread on this in the djgpp newsgroup) > result is a easy to use while slower program, but which is more > advantageous? Speed, or ease of use? If you make a bad-ass editor that's .splitbung -- * TQ 1.0 * The 'Just So Quotes'. "They're filming Rocky V now. This one's being billed as `Rocky's Greatest Challenge', so I guess there's an IQ test involved." -- Jay Leno From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu May 9 11:35 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA18948 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 11:35:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id FAA23470 for quake-dev-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 05:31:36 -0400 Received: from xr3.atlas.fr (xr3.atlas.fr [194.51.9.5]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id FAA23464 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 05:28:30 -0400 Thu, 9 May 1996 11:01:00 +0200 Thu, 9 May 1996 11:01:00 +0200 Thu, 9 May 1996 10:51:00 +0200 X400-Received: by /PRMD=INTERNET/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; Relayed; Thu, 9 May 1996 11:01:00 +0200 X400-Received: by mta xr3.atlas.fr in /PRMD=INTERNET/ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; Relayed; Thu, 9 May 1996 11:01:00 +0200 X400-Received: by /ADMD=ATLAS/C=FR/; Relayed; Thu, 9 May 1996 11:00:47 +0200 X400-Received: by /PRMD=cnet/ADMD=atlas/C=fr/; Relayed; Thu, 9 May 1996 10:51:00 +0200 Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:51:00 +0200 X400-Originator: montanuy@lsun80.lannion.cnet.fr X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=cnet/ADMD=atlas/C=fr/;831631860@x400.lannion.cnet.fr] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: VB and DLL for Q Alternate-Recipient: Allowed From: Olivier Montanuy Message-ID: <9605090850.1E29FC@lat1192.lannion.cnet.fr> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: VB and DLL for Quake editing X-Mailer: E-Mail 1.6 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2491 X-Lines: 55 Status: RO >Are you actually proposing writiing a 3D Wireframe real time editor in >Visual Basic? >HAHAHAHAHAHA! >I'm sorry, that was rude. Indeed. But I can confirm, because I tried, with WinTex 4.3 2 frames per second on a DX4/75, with a 400x300 picture, on even the smaller Quake levels (without hidden face calculations of course). That was under windoze 3.1, 256 color. Of course, all the calculations are done in C, but the linking to Visual Basic is so damn slow that you can't expect any decent performance. BTW: I've got a long experience of external DLLs linked to Visual Basic. For any decent WAD editing to be done by DLL, you end up with several dozen of DLL functions, much more than one can find in reasonable DLLs. WinTex didn't explode yet, but I expect it will. > VB is purely a tool for interface *design*. >Trying to write a complete application in it is a waste of time. That's completely true. Microsoft didn't provide fast or even convenient access to graphic features in VB. When WinTex blasts pictures to the screen, Vb controls are painted a hell lot too slow. Not to mention that the VB listbox take hours to load. If you want fast prototyping, use Python. All the advantages of C/C++ syntax, minus all the bore. It's interpreted, but half pre-compiled stuff. Not as fast as C on calculations, but then you can link C code to Python. Also, Python is a free tool. Which means it doesn't depend on the Microsoft commercial policy, especially the one that makes VB 3.0 programs crash when running in VB 4.0 (guess why WinTex 4.3 is still a 16-bit app). (Note: WinTex is a VB program, that uses a C (object oriented like) library to speed up all WAD manipulations.) > if a compromise is what you are looking for, then Visual C++ really is >the choice. MFC is no bed of roses for sure, We're talking normal human with a life, not geeks who can learn a poorly documented hundred-class C++ library, when not working for money. I assume you learned MVC as part of your job? > Even GDI manipulations are relatively simple once you grasp the >concept of the device context in the framework of the CDC class. And with every line of code you write with GDI, there can be a bug. >Personally, I think it is going to take a Direct Draw appliction to >acheive the ultimate goal of 3D Preview. That's probably right. We're all counting on hackers like you to write the middleware, so that normal human can use DirectDraw ;-) Olivier From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu May 9 13:55 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id NAA20654 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 13:55:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id HAA23825 for quake-dev-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 07:52:54 -0400 Received: from minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (minerva.phyast.pitt.edu [136.142.111.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id HAA23821 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 07:52:51 -0400 Received: (brian@localhost) by minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (8.6.10/8.6.5) id HAA04928 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Thu, 9 May 1996 07:52:45 -0400 From: "Brian K. Martin" Message-Id: <199605091152.HAA04928@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Subject: Re: The GUI of Choice? To: quake-dev@gamers.org Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 07:52:44 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <13989@tsys.demon.co.uk> from "Tom Wheeley" at May 7, 96 11:50:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 19 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 615 > > In article <199605072215.PAA29174@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> you write: > > Well it _would_ be nice if djgpp could make DLLs... (I believe there is a > thread on this in the djgpp newsgroup) > There is a zip file at the djgpp main site that shows you how to do this. (i'm surprised the rars guys haven't used it..) Also, to throw one more language into the discussion, I must mention that 'envelope' is a visual basic type of language for win95/NT and is completely free. I've played around with it and found it to be really easy. Again, speed may be a problem. I just thought I'd mention envelope. brian From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu May 9 14:06 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA20780 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 14:05:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id IAA23919 for quake-dev-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 08:05:09 -0400 Received: from mercury.acs.unt.edu (mercury.acs.unt.edu [129.120.1.1]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id IAA23910 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 08:05:03 -0400 Received: from jove.acs.unt.edu (jove.acs.unt.edu [129.120.1.41]) by mercury.acs.unt.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id GAA26043 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 06:42:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from bdb0004@localhost) by jove.acs.unt.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id GAA23495; Thu, 9 May 1996 06:40:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 06:40:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Barry D Bloom To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: VB and DLL for Quake editing In-Reply-To: <9605090850.1E29FC@lat1192.lannion.cnet.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 40 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 1915 On Thu, 9 May 1996, Olivier Montanuy wrote: > > if a compromise is what you are looking for, then Visual C++ really is > >the choice. MFC is no bed of roses for sure, > We're talking normal human with a life, not geeks who can learn a poorly > documented hundred-class C++ library, when not working for money. > I assume you learned MVC as part of your job? Yes, I have, and I am not a eyes closed pundit about it either. It is wonderful for the management of an application framework. I am suprised anyone would honor me with the term "geek with no life" for learning it. The truth is, if you want a wiz-bang interface for your Quake editor with good speed, VC++ is the answer. I find it hard to believe that anyone could produce a more solid framework to build upon than the one generated by VC. All the nice and neat common controls of the Win32 development enviornment are nicely packaged up and the code, even though microsoft, is better tested than anything I could write. > > >Personally, I think it is going to take a Direct Draw appliction to > >acheive the ultimate goal of 3D Preview. > That's probably right. We're all counting on hackers like you to write > the middleware, so that normal human can use DirectDraw ;-) > DirectDraw is not that hard. There are plenty of good examples on how to use it, and it provides the basic functionality any game would need. The cool thing about it is that if I have model X video card which has all sorts of hardware gadgets, any direct draw code will use these directly. While, someone else who has model Y with no hardware gadgets, gets all those wizbang features in software emulation, but I don't have to change anything about my code. All while I have a very tiny layer of abstraction between me and the video card itself! Anyway, enough chanting.... Barry Bloom bdb0004@jove.acs.unt.edu ------------------------ From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Sun May 19 17:02 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA24961 for ; Sun, 19 May 1996 17:02:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id KAA03737 for quake-dev-outgoing; Sun, 19 May 1996 10:57:31 -0400 Received: from relay.bt.net (relay.bt.net [194.72.6.52]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id KAA03732 for ; Sun, 19 May 1996 10:57:28 -0400 Received: from flash.globalnews.com by relay.bt.net with SMTP (PP); Sun, 19 May 1996 15:57:12 +0100 Received: by flash.globalnews.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA22490; Sun, 19 May 1996 15:53:18 GMT From: jschuur@globalnews.com Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 15:53:18 +0000 (GMT) To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: QuakeEd source code released Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 14 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 553 for those of you who haven't heard yet (all three of you). johnc has released the source code for QuakeEd (but not all the other developement tools, specifically not qbsp, vis and light). ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/source/QuakeEd.tar.gz -- joost schuur, Online Magic Ltd. ----------- Tel: +44 171 820 7766 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- http://www.nuqneH.org/~jschuur/ ---- jschuur@onlinemagic.co.uk --- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Sun May 19 19:33 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA26158 for ; Sun, 19 May 1996 19:33:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id NAA04418 for quake-dev-outgoing; Sun, 19 May 1996 13:30:46 -0400 Received: from linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (root@linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.34]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id NAA04414; Sun, 19 May 1996 13:30:42 -0400 Received: from uni4nn.iaf.nl (root@uni4nn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.33]) by linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA09470; Sun, 19 May 1996 19:14:57 +0200 Received: by uni4nn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA26920 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sun, 19 May 1996 19:14:38 +0200 Received: from xymph.iaf.nl by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA17155 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sun, 19 May 1996 18:22:31 +0200 Received: by xymph.iaf.nl id AA00159 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sun, 19 May 1996 17:11:54 +0200 From: "Frans P. de Vries" Message-Id: <199605191511.AA00159@xymph.iaf.nl> Subject: QuakeEd source released To: rgcq-support@gamers.org Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 17:11:53 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 66 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 2575 Hi, FYI, John Carmack released the current source of QuakeEd, id's map editor: ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/source/QuakeEd.tar.gz ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/idgames/source/QuakeEd.tar.gz (& mirrors) Here is the .txt file (lines wrapped for readibility): 5/18/96 This is a dump of the current source code for QuakeEd, our map editing application. This does not include everything necessary to build maps. There are graphics files, prog files, and other utilities needed. I plan on releasing a full development set of tools after the game ships. This is just intended to help out anyone working on their own map editor. This is a NEXTSTEP application, so hardly anyone is going to be able to use the code as is. This is not an OPENSTEP application. It doesn't even use the foundation kit, so porting to gnustep or openstep-solaris/mach/nt would not be trivial. There are lots of mixed case and >8 character filenames, so I'm using unix gnutar (compressed) format. Because most people won't have access to a NEXTSTEP machine, I took pictures of some of the more important stuff from interface builder: mainwindow.tiff : a screenshot of the primary window inspectors.tiff : a screenshot of the important inspector views help.txt : a dump of the (minimal) help inspector's contents. I included some sample data to help you follow the code: quake.qpr : our current project file jrbase1.map : a sample map triggers.qc : a sample qc source file that includes some /*QUAKED comments There will not be any major changes to this code base. I am eagerly looking forward to writing a brand new editor for windows NT + open GL as soon as Quake ships. This application was really not a very good fit for NEXTSTEP. The display postscript model fundamentally doesn't fit very well with what we need here -- if you run in an 8 bit color mode, the line drawing runs at an ok speed, but the texture view goes half the speed it should as it dithers from 24 bit color down to 8 bit. If you run in 24 bit color mode, you get less screen real estate and significantly slower line drawing as a 3 megabyte XY view is flushed. Sigh. If anyone does actually run this on NEXTSTEP be advised that you want a fast machine. I never had the time to properly optimize QuakeEd. The texture view rendering code in here is crap. Anyone coding a new editor is strongly advised to just use an available optimized library, like open GL or direct 3D. John Carmack Id Software johnc@idsoftware.com -- Frans P. de Vries | fpv@ftp.cdrom.com | Doom/Quake archive backup maintainer From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Mon May 20 18:56 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA18900 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 18:50:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id MAA10792 for quake-dev-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 12:44:10 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id MAA10788 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 12:43:53 -0400 Received: (from bernd@localhost) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id SAA18812 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Mon, 20 May 1996 18:43:31 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:43:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Message-Id: <199605201643.SAA18812@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: The GUI of Choice? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1131 X-Lines: 35 Status: RO Concluding summary (as far as I am concerned):

          | XToolkit |_Lang. | Builder | Mesa/GLUT | ---------------------------------------------------
Amulet    | own      | C++   | not yet |     ?     |
Fresco    | Xt, own  | C++   | ?       | possible  |
V         | Athena   | C++   | no      | possible  |
wxWindows | XView    | C++   | yes     | supported |

wxWindwos supports Mesa/OpenGl since mid of 1995, with GLX (Linux/SGI), and with NT. The author of V indicated he had not tried nor heard of any attempts, but it should work: "The vCanvas class provides methods to retrieve both Widget and Drawable handles for X, and HWNDs for Windows, which is what I understand is required by OpenGL." The same is likely to be true for Fresco. I have received no response whatsoever from the authors of Amulet. ... and the winner is ... In case anybody could care less: I will try wxWindows with Linux, as the GLX-based Mesa support is the most decisive issue. See QED :-). b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Mon May 20 20:11 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA19862 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:11:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id OAA11222 for quake-dev-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 14:07:53 -0400 Received: from mailgate.ericsson.se (mailgate.ericsson.se [130.100.2.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id OAA11218; Mon, 20 May 1996 14:07:49 -0400 Received: from chapelle.eed.ericsson.se (chapelle.eed.ericsson.se [164.48.132.130]) by mailgate.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3/gate-0.9) with ESMTP id UAA22706; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:07:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from eedraq@localhost) by chapelle.eed.ericsson.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA03148; Mon, 20 May 1996 19:07:41 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 19:07:41 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199605201707.TAA03148@chapelle.eed.ericsson.se> To: doom-editing@gamers.org, quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Anybody still using Turbo C 3.0? From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2528 X-Lines: 56 Status: RO Hi there! Here is an article that I just posted in the Doom/Quake editing newsgroups. It is barely on-topic for these lists, that's why I encourage you to post your replies to the newsgroups or to send them to me directly instead of sending them to the lists. If necessary, I will post a summary of the replies here. Here is my question: I made some progress on GAEL, my portable Doom/Quake editing library (which will be released as part of QEU 0.4), but some parts of the code get a bit messy if I still support Turbo C 3.0. Following the good tradition of DEU, I try to support as many operating systems and compilers as possible (DJGPP, Borland, Watcom under DOS and many other compilers under UNIX), but some workarounds for the bugs in the old Turbo C 3.0 make the code less readable and I would like to get rid of these kludges. Description of the most annoying bug: TC 3.0 cannot increment huge pointers with the "++" operator. Try writing a short program which declares a pointer as "char huge *p" and then print the value of p before and after "p++" and "p = p + 1" and you will see the difference! That was one of the most frustrating problems that I had when debugging some early versions of DEU two years ago. Because of that, I have to put some #ifdef's in my code, and this is not very pretty. For example: #ifdef __TURBOC__ *p = x; p = p + 1; #else *p++ = x; #endif When this is a single statement, that solution is still bearable, but it gets really annoying when the "++" is embedded in another statement or when there are several huge pointers involved in a loop. I would like to know if there are some people out there who are still using TC 3.0 for compiling C programs, or if I can assume that everybody has switched to a newer version of Borland C++ or to another compiler, such as DGJPP (which is very good, and free). If I don't have to support TC 3.0 anymore, I would be glad to get rid of these #ifdef's in the code. Note that I will still be supporting 16-bits DOS compilers as well as 32-bits compilers; it's only TC 3.0 which is a problem. -Raphael -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | WWW: http://www.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~quinet | | E-mail: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se or quinet@montefiore.ulg.ac.be | | S-mail: Raphael Quinet, 9 rue des Martyrs, 4550 Nandrin (Belgium) | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue May 21 12:50 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA00964 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 12:50:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id GAA15725 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 06:45:01 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id GAA15718 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 06:44:04 -0400 Received: (from bernd@localhost) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id MAA00902 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Tue, 21 May 1996 12:42:48 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 12:42:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Message-Id: <199605211042.MAA00902@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: QuakeEd source released X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 895 X-Lines: 23 Status: RO I updated the QuakeDev pages at http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/quake/. There is a (preliminary) Source Overview page, the screenshots page has been updated (the GIF files are a lot smaller), and the links I posted earlier this month have been added. If anybody is going to work on porting QuakeEd, I would appreciate reports. I am considering a port using C++, wxWindows and Mesa just as a feasibility study, and will put whatever insights on the pages. b. P.S.: there is one file in DOS format, cmdlib.h - perhaps a really ancient one :-). Besides the two screenshots itself, the other TIFF files (icons) are in a 12bit format inaccesible to most tools available to me, but the Gimp loads it - and vx grabs it. Whatever it's worth. Anyone happen to know a UNIX/C-equivalent of the UserPath lib?